17 August 2010 By Kourosh Ziabari
Dr. Fredrick
Toben is a German author and founder and former
director of the Adelaide Institute. He has written
numerous books on education, political science and
history and is best known as a historical revisionist
who has extensively argued the veracity of Holocaust
accounts by the Jewish historians. Due to his
holocaust denial, he has been imprisoned three times
in Germany, United Kingdom and Australia.
This is an
in-depth interview with Dr. Toben in which we've
discussed his viewpoints regarding holocaust, the
unconditional supports of the United States for
Israel, the plight of Palestinian nation under the
Israeli occupation and the fate of Middle East peace
process.
Kourosh Ziabari: Western politician usually boast of
their commitment to liberal values and democratic
principles such as the freedom of speech and human
rights; however, you were sentenced to prison two
times as a result of expressing your viewpoints and
ideas. Should the same case happen in a third-world,
non-aligned country such as Iran, one can hardly
imagine the extent of international condemnations and
criticism that would come next. Aggregately, you spent
12 months in prison and this should be very painful.
Tell us about your experiences in the prisons of
Germany, United Kingdom and Australia.
Fredrick Toben:
I think the best way to begin answering this question
is by repeating my sometime misunderstood quip: ‘The
world is my prison'. This realization has been
strengthened by my regularly visiting Iran since 1999
when I left Mannheim Prison after seven months and
spent a week in Teheran. I was impressed with the
Iranian youth who had a strong national bond with
their country, so different to the Germans and other
peoples in the so-called western democracies.
This
difference is one of mindset. In the West we have
pushed the hedonistic-consumer life-style to the point
where individuals self-destruct through substance
abuse and nihilistic thought processes that suggest
life is fun and games. As a teacher I opposed such a
world view because the act of thinking about things is
actually hard work. Admittedly, for some it is easier
than for others but all of us should have to think
about our value system, the guide that enables us to
lead a productive and balanced life.
I was
impressed how determined Iranian students are in their
attitudes towards life. Admittedly, it helps that
there are still some legal constraints that support a
form of public modesty, something we have lost in the
west. I was also impressed by the wisdom they
expressed, for example, some could not understand why
in the West an individual who has personal problems,
as if that is an abnormal thing, goes off and pays
money to a stranger who then listens to his personal
problems, often about his most intimate problems. I
was informed that in Iran this matter is handled by a
person visiting family and friends, cousins, aunts or
uncles, who then advise on how best to solve a
pressing problem. I have been advised that now there
is also a new growth industry – psychological
counselling, which is a brain-child of the Freudian
mindset, and in turn its wellspring is found in
Talmud, the Jewish moral guide. It is little wonder
that too many individuals cannot accept such thoughts
intruding into their value system and becoming a part
of their Weltanschauung-world view.
Just getting
back to freedom as such, if we use the concept freedom
then we must always ask the questions: freedom from
what and freedom for what? In the West we have the
freedom to self-destruct, this being the logical
consequences of consumer society's motor that
predatory capitalism has constructed for us. I have
just returned from a seven-week American tour and saw
the tragedies being played out as the financial system
is crashing all around and vainly trying to resurrect
itself. The home foreclosures are a catastrophe, but
as is fitting within the hedonistic blame-game, the
individuals who received loans from banks that they
could never repay are blamed for causing their own
destruction. This is sad because we should be looking
at the system operating in one of the wealthiest
countries in the world that permits poverty and
homelessness to flourish while individuals within that
system receive millions of dollars in performance
bonuses.
As far as my
prison time is concerned, I refuse to adopt a victim
mentality because that is unproductive. As Captain
Eric May's wife, Gretchen, reminded me when I visited
them in July this year in Houston, as she tended to
her totally disabled husband, “It's useless to sit on
the pity-pot and better to get on with the job'.
That's the imperative, to get on with the job, and if
your body gives up on you, then it is the brain that
sees you through. This is also true of prison itself.
The authorities may have your body but they still do
not have your mind, not yet. There were moved afoot to
declare individuals who refuse to believe in the
‘Holocaust' as ‘delusional', the first step to have
them psychiatrically committed. But then we know how
such a story tragically ends, as in the 1962 novel,
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's
Nest http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jReNeEHH2lQ
In 1999 I
spent time at Yalta, Crimea, where I met a
psychiatrist who informed me how he had to certify
insane any Soviet Union dissenter. Anyone who refused
to go along with Marxism as a state ideology would be
given the treatment. In Poland up to 1989 it was a
dogma to believe that the Germans perpetrated the
Katyn Massacre, when in fact it was the mainly Jewish
staffed Soviet secret service that did it. The
‘Holocaust' has reached this stage in a number of
European countries – and we have to ask ourselves why
this is so.
The usual
response is that questioning the ‘holocaust' is
hurtful to the survivors and it is defaming the memory
of the dead, and it is also diminishing the Nazi
war-crimes and will lead to a re-surgence of Nazism.
All of these reasons are baseless because history does
not repeat itself in any such detail. Further, any
‘Holocaust' trial is a mere show-trial reminiscent of
the Soviet show trials where the accused is already
guilty but where a confession of guilt helps to
minimize the sentence. During the witch trial era a
show of contrition and remorse helped to make the
execution a little swifter because it eliminated
torture sessions prior to being executed.
Any country
that enacts such laws on the pretext of protecting the
‘Holocaust' is perverting its legal system. The
Austrians, Germans and Swiss have done it, but the
Anglo-Common Law countries are resisting it vehemently
because they can see that it could have a backlash on
its own system of law, which guarantees basic
individual rights.
But it must be
remembered that all western democracies have that far
more subtler mechanism of imprisonment for its people,
namely the financial straight jacket. In today's world
the only value that a person needs to develop is his
credit worthiness, while such things as character are
irrelevant. A person's credit rating supersedes all,
until one begins to question the underpinning ideology
of this financial system, which, among others, is
upheld by the ‘Holocaust' ideology.
KZ: Let's talk about the main issue of our concern.
Some scholars and thinkers believe that, in order to
escape from the responsibility of hosting the Jewish
immigrants who were displaced following the Second
World War, Canada, the United States, Germany and
Britain, planned the establishment of a Jewish state
on the Palestinian land so as to get away with the
burden of receiving the Jewish refugees themselves.
What do you think about this viewpoint?
FT: The Second
World War's legacy is still with us to this day and
that is why it is important to have an historical
perspective on all this, namely that World War One and
World War Two were actually a 30-year war period,
which can be called a European civil war. The outcome
was the establishment of the State of Israel that is
quite clear when one asks: who benefited from this
conflict? The Zionist program of the 1890s had come to
fruition at the expense of the Palestinians. The
fabricated ‘Holocaust' narrative assists in cementing
the myth that Palestine was a land without people, and
the world knows that to this day ethnic cleansing
continues unabated with the western democracies not
lifting a finger to stop this process.
When White
House correspondent of over 50 years, Lebanese Helen
Thomas, was asked about the Palestinian crisis she
responded honestly: send the Jews back home. Where is
home, she was asked. Germany and Poland, she replied.
The next day she apologized and lost her job.
It must be
remembered that any kind of war is multi-faceted, as
we witnessed in our time with the Iraq-Iran war, the
2003 Iraq invasion by the Anglo-American-Zionist
forces, the Afghan conflict and the current intention
by these forces to attack Iran.
The
ideological battle lines are still national versus
international, and not the false dialectic of left and
right-wing politics, as Anthony Lowenstein wishes to
believe. As a Jew Lowenstein opposes the Zionists but
believes in the ‘Holocaust' ideology-lies as well as
in the Marxist-Trotskyist nonsense that is based on
Talmud thinking.
KZ: Your viewpoint regarding Holocaust has been
usually distorted and misrepresented. What's your
exact stance on it? Did the mass killing of Jews by
the Nazi forces in concentration camps take place? Has
its extent been exaggerated by the Israelis to attract
the commiseration of the Western powers? Is it being
employed as an instrument of subjugating and
oppressing the Palestinian people?
FT: I follow
Professors Arthur Butz and Robert Faurisson in their
deliberations on this topic, and both conclude that
the premise, pillars on which the ‘Holocaust'
narrative rests, 6 million Jews killed, systematic
state extermination policy, murder weapon a gas
chamber, cannot be sustained as being the truth of the
matter. As Butz says, it is rubbish to hold such a
view, and Faurisson calls it a lie. It is not for
Revisionists to prove their assertions but for those
who believe in the ‘Holocaust' to prove their case,
which to date has not been done. Faurisson's
challenge: ‘Show me or draw me the homicidal gas
chambers at Auschwitz' has not been taken up by
anyone. What does happen is legal persecution that
leads to personal and financial ruin and imprisonment.
That speaks for itself, and then there is the
defamation of those who refuse to believe in the
‘Holocaust' with the following shut-up words, hater,
Holocaust denier, antisemitist, racist, Nazi, and even
terrorist.
It is thanks
to the courageous Iranian President, Dr Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad, who informed the world that the
‘Holocaust' is being misused by those who oppress the
Palestinian people. This linkage is fundamental in
solving the crisis facing the Middle East, and only
after its resolution will the area come to rest. The
focus on Iran as a rogue nuclear state is a mere
pretext used by the Anglo-American-Zionist powers to
retain the myth of the Zionist entity called Israel.
KZ: You've proclaimed that Germans never gassed anyone
during World War II and have no need to feel guilty
about anything except for neglecting their cultural
roots. We may accept the notion that Holocaust did not
happen during the Second World War and was minimally a
lie which the Zionists fabricated to take advantage
from Europe; however, we have a number of renowned
Holocaust survivors such as Elie Wiesel, Władysław
Bartoszewski, Eric Kandel, Jack Triemel and Arek Harsh
who have retold their own accounts of those days and
even seen the demise of their relatives and family
members in person. What do you say about that?
FT: The fact
that serious Holocaust questioners are routinely
legally silenced speaks for itself. Only in the USA
with its First Amendment is there still absolute
freedom to discuss this topic. But even now there are
moves afoot to eliminate the First Amendment, and the
recent appointment of Elena Kagan to the US Supreme
Court may cause this to happen.
In my book
Arbeit Macht Frei: Impertinent Incarceration, I make
reference to a television program, ABC Good Morning
America, 18 February 2009, where a Herman Rosenblat
admits he has not been telling the truth about his
concentration camp experience, but for him this
made-up story was truthful because he imagined it to
be true! Such nonsense is well documented as typical
‘Holocaust' material.
The above
individuals would have great problems in a court of
law where truth-telling is still demanded. For
example, in the 1988 Zündel Toronto court case
Professor Rauol Hilberg, the author of the definitive
1985 book: The Destruction of the European Jews,
stated that the mentioned two written Hitler orders
did not exist. We are thus led to believe that Germans
began the extermination process without a plan,
without an order, without anything except an intuitive
feel of what Adolf Hitler wanted them to do. Such
premise is a nonsense because anyone who knows how
societies work and how bureaucracies don't move unless
there is a written order.
That Elie
Wiesel is a fraudster has been well established and
Google will produce the goods on this, but he has
academic tenure, which protects him, and so the
mythology will continue until he is no more.
KZ: Why does the United States support Israel so
unconditionally? In actuality, Israel has been immune
to all of the international laws and regulations
without being questioned by any of the international
bodies. It has attacked Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq
and Tunisia since its establishment and recurrently
subjugated the Palestinian people, killing the
innocent civilians, destroying their homes, building
illegal settlements and above all, possessing nuclear
weapons in violation of the UNSC resolution 487. What
would happen if any country rather than Israel had
committed such inhumane crimes?
FT:
Essentially, Israel embodies the New World Order that
emerged out of the World War Two conflict, and this
NWO is crumbling because of its own internal
contradictions, something that the Iranians have
recognised so well. However, the materialism that
still physically sustains the western democracies is
exhausting itself. This is so evident by the number of
countries where US troops are stationed. This physical
overreach has a negative impact on the US itself, one
being that its physical infrastructure is falling
apart. The Arizona effort to secure its won borders
from Mexico is a mere symptom of a national resistance
against the internationalism preached by the
proponents of the NWO.
An additional
problem to this is that the proponents of this new
internationalism in the form of the New World Order
requires a steady tax life-line. The aim of the carbon
tax that was supposed to help us fight climate
change/global warming/greenhouse effect/ozone hole,
etc. was designed to give the NWO that steady
sustaining tax income. It has not happened and one
consequence in Australia of that failure was a change
in Prime Minister. Mr Kevin Rudd was a strong
proponent of this internationalism in the form of the
climate change ideology. His attendance at the 2009
Copenhagen conference aimed to establish a global tax
system that the World Bank or the IMF would
administer.
KZ: On March 14, you quoted Herald Scotland's reporter
Rob Edwards as writing that hundreds of powerful US
"bunker-buster" bombs were shipped from California to
the British island of Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean
in preparation for a possible attack on Iran. Do you
take these actions seriously? Israel and United
States, over the past 6 years, have been threatening
Iran with an imminent war recurrently; however, their
threats never went beyond mere propaganda. Will the
United States and Israel be attacking Iran over its
nuclear program?
FT: The
problem faced by the western predatory capitalistic
war machine is the financial collapse that is built
into its faulty model. The cycle is grow and bust,
then plunder and recede and enjoy. The 9:11 tragedy of
2001 managed to hide one such a ‘bust' but by 2008
there was another one and the end is not yet in sight.
Countries that are reasonably self-sufficent will
survive the crash, while others dependent on world
markets will not.
Such economic
model; was opposed by the National Socialists under
Adolf Hitler who withdrew from international financial
agreements because it was causing too much fain for
its people. The new policy was to become AUTARK,
self-sufficient and not as is the case so markedly, a
network of interdependent enterprises that produce
goods as cheaply as possible without having any
allegiance to a community, except that of the
international banking system's set of values, which is
profits above social wellbeing of individuals.
The scenario
for war against Iran is a logical step within the
Anglo-American-Zionist's war machine strategic
planning, and the Iraq and Afghan wars are not enough
to sustain the global economy. The overreach is
becoming evident as, for example, US soldiers return
from tours of duty totally crushed by the hopelessness
of the situation, by the conflict dragging on too
long.
Such weariness
is also felt in Israel where individuals cannot
anymore participate in being members of an army that
is administering a state. The flight of Jews from
Israel to Germany, the USA-Canada, Britain and
Australia-New Zealand is seriously undermining morale.
It is only a matter of time that there will not be any
one willing to continue the occupation. We see similar
trends within the US military where aliens join up to
fight and their reward is receiving US citizenship.
This gives the notion of a mercenary army, as was the
French Foreign Legion, a new meaning. It is
essentially an outsourcing of military services,
something detrimental to a national state.
The Iranian
nuclear program issue, like the ‘Holocaust' is a
smokescreen that hides far deeper issues with which
the Anglo-American-Zionist war machine has to come to
terms with.
KZ: Do you differentiate between Zionists as the
followers of an expansionistic, racist ideology whose
ultimate objective is establishing a state with its
frontiers spanned from Nile to Euphrates and the Jews
as the followers of a monotheistic, divine religion?
It's been seen frequently said that the Zionists and
Jews have been conflated unjustly. What's your take on
that?
FT: My
academic training has been in philosophy and that
enables me to think and work in universals, truth,
honour, justice, etc. I have difficulties thinking in
racial terms because I follow Carl Jung's mindset, as
opposed to Siegmund Freud's infantile emphasis on
sexual matters. Jung's archetype thinking postulates
that humans have a common denominator that expresses
itself in character types.
I vividly
recall my teaching time in Nigeria where I came across
individuals who were eager to learn and develop their
minds, and for a teacher this is inspirational. As I
retuned to Australia I came across students who didn't
want to learn because for them thinking was hard work
and they were not imbued with such mindset because our
education philosophy is still based on hedonism,
learning has to be fun. To that I say, yes, let's have
fun but then let's also do some serious thinking, and
that's hard work.
The Jews are
not a race and to have Zionists calling themselves
Jewish is a contradiction in terms. It is much like
Antony Lowenstein fighting the Zionists-nationalists
but at the same time calling himself an atheist but
also a Jewish Trotzkyist who believes in the
‘Holocaust'. Out of this Talmudic mindset emerges a
victim mentality that is played to the full when it is
a matter of the battle-of-the-wills. If a person does
not get their way, then they play victim, of
discrimination, etc. When they get their way, they
become tyrannical in their behaviour, as we see the
Zionists behaving in Palestine. It is the case of the
man who kills his parents, then pleads before a judge
for mercy because he is now an orphan.
I cannot
discriminate against individuals who hold a firm and
sincere religious belief, and that is why I cannot
accept that being Jewish is a racist matter. For
example Sir Yehudi Menuhin's son, Gerard, who wrote
the Introduction to my book 50 Days in Gaol, is
anything but a Zionist and like his father opposed the
settlements. In 1991 before the Israeli parliament he
said, among other things:
"This wasteful
governing by fear, by contempt for the basic dignities
of life, this steady asphyxiation of a dependent
people, should be the very last means to be adopted by
those who themselves know too well the awful
significance, the unforgettable suffering of such an
existence. It is unworthy of my great people, the
Jews, who have striven to abide by a code of moral
rectitude for some 5,000 years, who can create and
achieve a society for themselves such as we see around
us but can yet deny the sharing of its great qualities
and benefits to those dwelling amongst them."
Jerusalem Post, 6 May 1991.
Nathan Chofshi
of Herliza, one of the pioneer Jewish settlers in
Palestine, said in the Jewish Letter, New York,
February 9, 1959: "We came and tuned the native Arabs
into refugees, and still we dare to slander and malign
them, to besmirch their name. Instead of being ashamed
of what we did and trying to undo some of the evil
committed....we justify our terrible acts and even
attempt to glorify them." This is what the Zionists
did to the world, which then "bowed down to them."
This above
quotations, of course raises further issues but it
follows the line of reasoning that the UN Security
Council gave on 1 April 1948: "The occupant does not
in any way acquire sovereign right in the occupied
territory but exercise a temporary right of
administration on a trustee basis...."
But it's not
only the Jewish world that is at fault, and my quip:
Don't blame the Jews, blame those that bend to their
pressure, still holds. For example, there are Israel's
supporters who let all this happen at the expense of
the peoples them residing in Palestine.
Think of the
following: The "Provisional Government of Israel"
consisted of international Zionists gangsters, aliens
from many foreign countries throughout the world; How
could Israel possible convert robbery, looting and its
acts of crime into an act of benevolence or transmit
them into acts of decency and transform aggression
into "peace-loving?" Many leading Americans defended
and praised this atrocity. Voices such as the
following were in the minority: Father Ralph Gorman,
Editor of the Sign Magazine, wrote in February 1960:
"We aided and abetted the Zionists and Israelis who
drove nearly a million Arabs from their homes and
replaced them with a million Jewish immigrants."
The UN Charter
admits as a member "A peace-loving State which accepts
the obligations of the Charter - is able and willing
to carry out these obligations”. This the Jews have
never recognized but instead have ignored the UN and
the Security Council ever since. In any case a
so-called state of Israel never existed in fact or in
law or in history and so it is nothing but an illegal
"proclamation" and an illegal occupation of
Palestinian land.
The
demographic factor in this area, of course, is also of
importance and were there any democratic solution
drawn up in time the Palestinians would outbreed the
Jews living in Israel and a solution would emerge
where Arabic-speaking Palestinians would hold the
majority vote. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews this is
untenable because they want to be by themselves, even
not associate with their ‘secular' Jews. This latter
point could develop into a societal implosion,
something that has already begun with Israel relying
on migrant workers to keep the country going. Add to
that the legal definition of who is a Jew and many
more societal problems will emerge, which perhaps will
rescue the dogmatic into yielding to the inevitable –
a one-state solution as proposed by Iran.
Finally: Let's
remember that the international Zionists leaders led
by David Ben-Gurion committed war crimes and crimes
against humanity in Palestine as defined by Article 6
of the Nuremberg Charter by which the German National
Socialist leaders were convicted by the International
Military Tribunal and hanged...but there is a
pragmatic and non idealistic mindset that aims to
establish physical facts on the ground that sets a new
dialectic, then physical force enables them to
exercise power over others. The latest example that
particularly succeeded before the lie became evident
was the insider-job of 9:11, which pitted the
so-called western democracies against the world of
Islam on the pretext that the west is bringing freedom
and democracy to the Muslim world where there is no
freedom and democracy. But thinking along such lines
goes beyond this current interview – and I thank you
for the opportunity for giving me a say
- Kourosh Ziabari is an
Iranian freelance journalist. He has interviewed
political commentator and linguist Noam Chomsky,
member of New Zealand parliament Keith Locke,
Australian politician Ian Cohen, member of German
Parliament Ruprecht Polenz, former Mexican President
Vicente Fox, former U.S. National Security Council
advisor Peter D. Feaver, Nobel Prize laureate in
Physics Wolfgang Ketterle, Nobel Prize laureate in
Chemistry Kurt Wüthrich, Nobel Prize laureate in
biology Robin Warren, famous German political prisoner
Ernst Zündel, Brazilian cartoonist Carlos Latuff,
American author Stephen Kinzer, syndicated journalist
Eric Margolis, former assistant of the U.S. Department
of the Treasury Paul Craig Roberts,
American-Palestinian journalist Ramzy Baroud, former
President of the American Motion Picture Arts and
Sciences Sid Ganis, American international relations
scholar Stephen Zunes, American singer and songwriter
David Rovics, American political scientist and
anthropologist William Beeman, British journalist Andy
Worthington, Australian author and blogger Antony
Loewenstein, Iranian geopolitics expert Pirouz
Mojtahedzadeh, American historian and author Michael
A. Hoffman II and Israeli musician Gilad Atzmon. Comments 💬 التعليقات |