02 September 2010By Philip - Village Square
Question:
Thank you for taking the time to be on the NVS HotSeat.
General, we will start right away. You are talking to
two Nigerians of a certain generation, who went
through all the experiences of military rule in
Nigeria. I mean if you look at the bracket from 1983
to 1999, that is a huge chunk out of the life of your
two interviewers, so they come to this with a certain
mindset about former military leaders wanting to come
back as civilian presidents. But that notwithstanding
we thought we should give you the opportunity to earn
your first two votes today. Why should Pius and Moses
who are interviewing you - why should they vote for
you?
General Buhari: Well, they made not be living
in Nigeria, but I believe that their concern about
Nigeria is as genuine as that of those of us who are
here. Firstly, the physical and material insecurity in
the country. The most important and fundamental thing
that any government can do from 2011 is to secure this
country. There is so much abduction and assassination.
There is so much corruption. The institutions that
support democracy have been compromised: the Nigerian
police, the judiciary, the other law enforcement
agencies, the civil service. Infrastructures have
gone. You know it very well— there is no power,
factories have closed, people have lost their jobs,
[and] there are no roads. So, what we are saying is
that we are going to take the fundamental things and
try and rebuild the country. This is what we are
saying.
VISION FOR
NIGERIA
Question: Well, thank you for that
answer. This is Moses. You talked about a number of
problems that the country currently wrestles with.
Those are familiar problems that require immediate
solutions, but projecting into the future, the issue
with Nigeria is that we don’t just need to act today
to solve our immediate problems; but we also have to
develop strategic plans for the future. So, along
those lines, let me ask you this question, General.
Where do you see Nigeria, what is your vision for
Nigeria in the next 20 years— say in the year 2030?
General Buhari: Yeah, if you will look at
population projections, you look at social
institutions, especially education, health care,
infrastructure and, above all, power… [We need all
these] so that factories can re-open, people can get
employment, there will be less unemployment and
consequently there will be less crime and [we can
have] the other infrastructure [such as] health care,
drinking water, good roads. Now, in 20 years’ time we
want to see that relative to the growth of the
population, that at length, that the resources, both
human and material, have to meet to make sure Nigeria
makes the necessary impact in the global community. We
have the people. We have the resources. Therefore,
there must be the discipline, the leadership that can
inspire and lead the people to make sure that there
are achievable economic conditions that will provide
employment and material security to generally uplift
the country.
Question: Okay, thank you General.
This is Pius. So far you have spoken in broad terms
about what is wrong with the country? You have
identified the problems and you have articulated what
needs to be done [and] where we need to go. But the
problem is that you need to tell us how you are going
to do some of these things concretely. Let me take you
back. You said factories need to reopened, for
instance. Now we need to know how you hope to reopen
the factories. Just give us an example. The textile
industry, for example, in the north - how would you
move from step A to B to C to D and ultimately ensure
that these factories reopen and not just reopen
haphazardly but in a sustained manner. What are your
plans?
General Buhari: Well, I am still within the
textile industry where I have an idea about…. The
textile industry was employing about 300,000 Nigerians
five, six years ago but now are employing less than
25,000. Why? A number of reasons. You are asking me
how we can get them reopened to employ people and
provide goods and services. We have to do something
drastic about power because they will have to be able
to operate effectively and at least break even. Now,
without power, with the [current] state of power, it
is almost impossible. There is a lot of publicity in
the last four years or so that there has been money
voted—about seventy billion naira— to help the
industry to do so. It is just like throwing bad money
after good money unless there are infrastructures in
place for these industries to become viable and
sustainable. So power is the number one priority. What
is happening to our power stations? What is happening
to our hydro power stations- Kainji, Shiroro, Jebba?
What is happening to the planned Mambilla hydro power
station to complement the thermal power station and
integrated into the national grind, and so on? There
are a lot of stories about it but five years is long
enough for Nigeria to see any impact and we haven't
seen any yet. So what the next government will do, if
it is a responsible government, is to make sure that
whatever resources has been voted on this issue of
power is used judiciously and all the infrastructures
must be made to be working again, and then new ones
are commissioned and sustained. This is our only way
out because we don’t have the technology to provide
power by solar, but what we have on the ground we
should get them working and then build new ones. Then,
the money voted for it we have to find out where it
is, because a lot of money has been voted for it. We
have been hearing of hearings in the National Assembly
about the money voted relative to what is happening in
the power sector itself. All this has to be done very
quickly.
WHAT MAKES
YOU MORE QUALIFIED THAN OTHERS?
Question: Okay, General, this is
Moses again. You have outlined a number of things that
we need to do, that the next leader needs to do to
resuscitate our industries and to get people back to
work. My first question… I’m going to ask a two-part
question. The first one is, what makes you more
qualified than, say Atiku, Ibrahim Babangida, Goodluck
Jonathan and all other contestants for the presidency
declared and undeclared? What makes you more qualified
to do these things than they? The second part of my
question is, you talked about power being very central
to the resuscitation of our industries. I’m sure you
are aware of how much has been spent by the Obasanjo
regime, the Yaradua regime and how little, if any,
power generation improvement we got from it. So, how
is your approach to power different from the
approaches of Obasanjo and Yar’adua and how do you
intend to fund that approach?
General Buhari: Well firstly, there is no limit
to the number of Nigerians that can aspire to lead the
country, based on the constitution and the Electoral
Act. Now, according to the Nigerian constitution ,
political parties are the platform, and you mentioned
Jonathan, Atiku, Babangida and myself and why I feel
that I may be better than them. Well, they belong to
their own party, I belong to my own party. It is up to
my party to nominate me and it is up to Nigerians to
accept me by the way I try to I sell myself to them,
to ask for their vote and I think ditto for the other
aspirants. So, I think under the constitution it is
very clear, legitimate and there is nothing to worry
about. The only thing is to let Nigerians listen to
and understand our manifestoes and ask from the ruling
party what they have done in last 10 years, what they
have done to Nigeria, whatever they are going to do
next they have to base it on that because they have
been responsible. For us that are contesting with
them, we will try to expose the incompetence of the
ruling party and therefore produce an effective
manifesto which Nigerians will listen to, that we are
going to do better. I think this is the normal thing.
Now your second question on— if you can remind me.
POWER
Question: On power. What will you do
differently from the Obasanjo and Yar’Adua approaches
and how would you fund your approach because funding
it is very crucial.
General Buhari: Well, I have just told you that
there has been a hearing in the National Assembly
about the resources, the amount of money voted during
the Obasanjo regime and the Yar’Adua regime on power.
That hearing or the recommendation of the hearing has
never seen the light of the day and we need to know.
But that, we cannot wait for. What we need immediately
is to look at what is on ground and what can we do to
salvage the situation. That will be the focus of our
manifesto on power. What is on the ground Nigerians
know, but what has been spent by the previous
administration that you mentioned Nigerians don’t know
because they didn’t see the improvement, but they were
told of the money spent, but what we will do is to
immediately proceed to improve power. We cannot wait
for the investigation that will show that the money
was judiciously used or not. If the money had been
judiciously used, the results would have surfaced -
the issue of power in Nigeria now should be a
different thing. There would have been a lot of
improvement in power, there would have been a lot of
factories open, there would have been a lot of people
working - under an effective leader.
CORRUPTION
Question: General, this is Pius
again. The immediate threat, as the greatest threat to
your vision for Nigeria, as you have articulated it
thus far is the problem of corruption, and the thing
with corruption in Nigeria is that you don’t even know
where to start. So, my question is what do you propose
to do differently? How do you plan to tackle
corruption beyond what I will call drop-in-the-ocean
approach of the EFCC that we have had thus far? How do
you plan to move against…?
General Buhari: Yes! As you said, it is an
established fact that Nigeria is notoriously corrupt.
Most of the institutions have been compromised, but
mercifully Nigerians are fed up with the indiscipline
and the corruption of governance, and this is our
greatest hope against next year’s elections - that
they need change. They need a serious team to be in
charge of the country, they want good governance and I
assure you (that one thing I know) is that Nigeria is
not short of rules and regulations about
accountability and transparency in dealing with
government businesses. What we have to do is to ensure
that our institutions from day one will go back to our
rules and regulations about accountability whether it
is public funds or private ones. Institutions have to
account properly and clearly according to the laws. We
have adequate laws. Our problem is implementation, and
the implementation is the corruption of the
institution. The elite has compromised the country as
a whole. We will persuade the Nigerian elite that they
have the capacity to turn the country around because
they are knowledgeable they are energetic - All they
need is to be encouraged and believe in the country
and therefore deliver the institutions they are
managing. So we have to secure this country and manage
it.
Question: Thank you general. I have a
quick follow up in terms of specifics. I am Pius
again. I am happy that you mentioned the elite. My
problem is that elite corruption as we have written
previously in our editorials in the NVS. Elite
corruption; there are many dimensions to it, and one
dimension is legalized or institutionalized corruption
where what they are doing is perfectly legal. For
instance, the issue of the allowances, the outrageous
allowances of the members of the National Assembly.
There is no doubt about the fact that there is
corruption, and you will be operating in this setting
and not in a military setting, but in a democratic
setting where your ability to intervene in what they
are doing is severely limited. So how do you propose
to go about issues like that: where corruption is
perfectly legal, it is built into budgets and
institutions of state? That aspect of corruption is
just as dangerous as all the other features of
corruption. So how do you propose to handle this
institutionalized and legal corruption ?
General Buhari: Well, the institutions that you
have commented on, that work on payments and
allowances of the legislature their allowances and so
on, they are playing a constitutional role of indexing
salaries and allowances according to the country’s
earnings. The same institution will have to be asked
to review it and this must be given a lot of publicity
which Nigerians will support what our government will
do if we are elected to make sure that money realized
which should go for social service, get industries up,
infrastructure, should not be given to the people in
the National Assembly and their counterparts in the 36
states of the federation. So I think this is a very
serious issue, and it has been topical here back at
home and I think it will form part of the election
campaign manifesto, which will be really articulated
and sold to the public. There must be some decency in
the amount of money public officers are paid. We can't
just sit here and allow public officers to just share
our revenue and kill all social services. That is not
how to rule the nation and I believe that whoever
eventually becomes members of the national and state
assemblies should accept a downward review of payments
and allowances.
FREEDOM OF
INFORMATION BILL
Question: Thank you General. Finally,
tell us something quickly about the freedom of
information bill. How do you propose to enhance the
process as part of your anti-corruption drive?
Obviously, the more Nigerians are informed of
governance and what they propose to do…
General Buhari: Well, this issue, from what I
saw from the Nigerian press, has been on for a number
of years. I am afraid that when we get there we have
to look at it and see what is happening in other
viably democratic countries and perhaps make some
changes. But from my experience, what I will appeal to
the press is to do a lot more investigative journalism
when it comes to issues of corruption of institutions
and individuals in high places. Nobody, either in
Nigeria or outside, can deny the fact that the
Nigerian system is very corrupt, and this is extremely
unfortunate. So, for that reason I think it needs an
honest effort on the part of the press to do their
investigative journalism so that real cases of
corruption can be exposed, so that institutions like
ICPC and EFCC can get a lead from the press who gets a
lot of public opinion. This is an extremely important
part of our campaign and manifesto.
SECURITY
Question: Thank you General. It's
Moses. I want to ask you about security. One of the
things you mentioned earlier is the insecurity of life
and properties and the situation has worsened recently
with kidnappings going on, with armed robbery, with
all kinds of insecurity. As a person with military
background, if you are elected as the president, how
would you approach insecurity within a democratic
environment, that is, using tools that do not violate
the human rights of people and do not incense the
human rights and civil society communities, that is
protective of the right of the Nigerians but at the
same time going after the bad guys, putting them in
jail and making sure that they longer terrorize
Nigerians? How would you balance those two seemingly
conflicting aspects of your profile while still being
effective in tackling the security issues?
General Buhari: Yes, I am sure when we started
this interview I said our manifesto mentioned how we
are going to secure and manage this country. By that
it should have rang a bell that Nigeria is insecure
physically and materially. Physically, as you
mentioned, the kidnappings, armed robbery, and then
materially, we are looking at systematic looting of
the treasury in all the three tiers of the government
- local state and center. The corruption has become
institutionalized and cutting it down is going to be
quite painful, but I assure you that it has to be done
because, resources of the country must be judiciously
used for social services. There is no point allowing
people to take the money out of the country and leave
the country high and dry. I believe we will get the
cooperation of all Nigerians to ensure that The
Police, the EFCC, the ICPC should do their job. They
should be constitutionally ready to do their jobs. I
believe they are well staffed. They are being
well-funded. And also the police, there has to be
retraining, re-equipping and seriousness should be
encouraged by promotion and those that crime persists
in their area of responsibility should be in position
to answer for their inefficiencies.
SHARIA AND
ETHNIC/RELIGIOUS CRISES
Question: General, this is Pius. I am
almost tempted to ask you point blank what your
current plans on Sharia and perhaps you know that it
is one of the most polarizing issues that we are
facing in this country now. You have been associated
in the past with some controversial statements with
regards to that. So how do you propose to create a
framework, a national framework, for religious harmony
in the country and a framework that could ultimately
take care of all the flashpoints and the crises that
we have from time to time? So Sharia and ethnic
tension in the country, what is your take on that,
General?
General Buhari: Well, the Nigerian constitution
is very clear about that, and I believe as you know
that there are twelve states in the federation that
follow Sharia because the constitution allows it. The
constitution allows that if their state assemblies
agree on certain sharia laws to be implemented then
those states are allowed to do it. I'm afraid this
court of sharia is being more politicized
than..(coughs) or more political than religious
because if you could recall there are cases in Sokoto
and in one other state where a court overruled the
decision of the Sharia court where a woman was to be
stoned or to be executed, you know, for having sex
outside marriage. So you can see that the
constitutional courts which are not Sharia courts are
superior to Sharia court, and people who have taken
their cases from the Sharia court there have victory
from it. So, really, there has not been a Sharia in
the constitutional problem from the time some of the
states in the country decide to practice Sharia. It is
always the constitutional courts that become superior
over Sharia courts, although sharia courts technically
are constitutional so really, there has been more of
politicking than religious issue of Sharia. People are
just using it, but for whatever political reason they
are using it I don’t know because the case of this
woman in Sokoto and some other states where people
have challenged the Sharia courts in the civil court
and they won their cases. So I hope you are following
this very closely because you are supposed to
interpret or inform the people of what actually is
happening about Sharia in Nigeria. If you can go and
study it further you will find out even when the
British came and conquered the caliphate, they did not
interfere with sharia - they only stopped two things -
stoning and chopping of hands. They had to stop the
chopping of hands for those who stole and stoning for
those who have sex outside marriage. These are the
only two things that the British stopped. So nobody
ever interfered with sharia other than stopping the
stoning, but sharia means so much discipline that
those who are talking about sharia are failing to
implement it because they would be the first victims
of sharia because sharia does not tolerate stealing of
public funds. It does not support injustice in any
form. so those who making too much noise about sharia
are afraid of Sharia itself. So, this is all I can say
about Sharia. I don't think sharia has any more
problems in this country, because nobody is stopping
or denying Muslims from being ruled by sharia. It's
more of their business now than business of other
Nigerians.
Question: So, I have two quick
follow-up questions. General, you mentioned the
constitution and you do know that there is this saying
that Sharia is incompatible with the constitution of
the Federal republic and I was wondering if you have
anything to say about it. I have even read people
going as far as claiming that Sharia is secession by
other means. The second question is… religious
violence. All these religious clashes we have had in
the country, especially in the Northern part of the
country. My fear is that part of the problems is that
there is no discipline and punishment that comes
through that and, as I know, from Maitasine down to
the Boko Haram, nobody has ever been arrested, tried
and jailed. So do you propose to have a workable
format of discipline and punish for our problems of
religious crisis?
General Buhari: Well, once again, you can’t
blame people who abide by Sharia or don’t abide by
Sharia. You blame the institutions, mainly the Police,
to arrest and prosecute. For example, there is a
certain story yesterday or the day before yesterday
where the president has received a report on the
crisis in Plateau State. Now, there has been at least
five of these crisis. There have been around four
reports. Where are they? Where are the reports? Why is
the government at the state and federal level are
afraid to implement the report of the commission they
have instituted on religious and tribal clashes in the
country which are more regular, I agree with you, more
often in the North than in the other parts of the
country. You can’t blame the people there. You can
blame the law enforcement agencies. If there is a
crisis in Plateau or in Kano or in Ibadan, it is up to
the police to investigate and prosecute and I am not
aware of any state where the government, the Federal
government which controls the police and the other
enforcement agencies, has stopped them from
investigating or prosecuting anybody. So why are the
law enforcement agencies not doing it and why is the
Government not making the law enforcement agencies to
do it? You have to go back and put the blame on the
Federal government, because if there were a crisis and
100 Nigerians were killed, the Nigerian police are
constitutionally empowered to suppress the crisis,
investigate it, arrest and prosecute. If they don’t do
it, so why is the Federal government not enforcing it?
Question: General, I hope you’re
aware that some years ago there was a controversy
around a statement credited to you somewhere in Sokoto
state in which you are reported to have said that
Muslims should vote for Muslims. Now whether you were
misquoted or not, whether you were misrepresented or
not, that has caused some anxiety and some concern,
understandably, to some Christians in the south of the
country, in the Middle Belt, even in the north itself.
So how do you intend to sell your candidacy to those
people who have perceived you wrongly or rightly as a
sectional candidate who is popular in the North
because he is seen as the champion of Islam and Sharia?
How do you propose to appeal to people who are
concerned legitimately and anxious about you being a
president who will implement Sharia nationally or who
will limit the rights of Christians and promote the
interest of Muslims? I want you to speak to those
people.
General Buhari: Well, that perception remains.
I know in 2003 I wrote to many Bishops and I could
recall I visited (inaudible) in 2003 and 2007. As you
said, it happened in Sokoto in 2000 before I
participated in elections. The person who reported me
by tribe is a Yoruba man, by religion a Muslim. He was
not in Sokoto and does not understand Hausa, maybe he
still doesn’t. How he got the story I don’t know. And
the comment I made was that people in Sokoto know
their people, that when the ban on politics is lifted
they should choose the people that will represent them
responsibly. This is common sense: if someone aspires
to rule this country, he cannot afford to offend even
pagans or even atheists—those who don’t even believe
in God. These are the people that will vote. How can I
say Muslims should not vote for Christians? Then do I
expect Christians to vote me, a Muslim? I wrote to the
Bishops. I explained to them, but I think, as you
mentioned, perception, people hold on to their
perception. Even the church leaders were careful to
explain to their flock that there is no way any leader
will, at the federal level, antagonize any of the
religions. So, I wrote to the Bishops to explain but I
am still very surprised that the perception remains.
So there is nothing I can do about it, but I will
continue to explain my position. And I have backed it
by facts that I have served the country’s military for
25 years. I did all the command and staff work, as a
platoon commander to General Officer Commanding and
the only still surviving officers that commanded three
of the four commands in the Nigerian Army. And the
Nigerian Army is about 75% Christian and nobody has
ever said I took a decision against anybody because of
his religion or his tribe. There are other tribes in
the whole command. So, if for politically it sticks
that I don’t like Christians, well it is very very
unfortunate, but my performance in office at all
stages has portrayed me as an impartial person, and I
have believe that whoever is still bringing that case
up, for whatever vote, will definitely fail in a free
and fair election. The question of me being a sharia
advocate and a hater of Christians has never happened
and it will certainly fail.
INDIGENESHIP
AND CITIZENSHIP
Question:
OK, General, this is Farooq Kperogi formerly of Weekly
Trust. I have a question on this controversy over
indigeneship and citizenship, especially in the
Northern part of the country, where I also come from.
There is this enduring debate on who is an indigene
and who is a citizen, and this manifested in the
crisis in Plateau. But what happened in Plateau is an
outward manifestation of a deeper trouble with every
part of Nigeria, to be fair. What is your take on
this? What do you think Nigeria should implement.
People have emotional attachments to their communities
and then the whole idea of citizenship is kind of new
to us. It is not as enduring in our part of our the
world as it is in the West. Do you think people have
the right to indigeneship of places they are
indigenous to or should everyone be free to contest
elections anywhere, in any part of the country they
are born? What is your solution to this lingering
problem of indigeneship, settlership, citizenship?
General Buhari: Well, I think this is a
betrayal of the Nigerian constitution by local
authorities and some states at various levels. And,
again, this shows the incompetency of the
administrators. There is the case in Plateau where
some of the people don’t even know the states they
came from - they don't know anything other than
Plateau state because their parents and their
grandparents were born there. They built houses there,
they are business people. But because their names
sounded like not a local name, they have problems in
terms of education, employment at state and local
government. It is an unfortunate situation which
shouldn’t be tolerated. It shouldn’t be tolerated by
the Federal Government, and again I am going back to
the police. The police in this place should have
investigated these cases. We said that between 1991
and today there were 5 major clashes. None of the
reports have seen the light of day. I squarely blame
all the federal governments that were in power for,
you know, for not having effective judicial inquiries
into the issue. Ideally, Nigerians have the right to
stay in any part of the country and if they have
stayed long enough in the area they can aspire to any
political office by registering and participating in
their constituency. I think we can only blame the
Federal government that failed to investigate properly
and prosecute those who perpetrate such evils against
the federation.
WAI, DECREE
4, EXECUTION OF DRUG TRAFFIKERS
Question: General, that was a
perceptive response but let me very quickly ask this:
when you were head of state between 1983 and 1984 one
of your signature policies was the War Against
Indiscipline (WAI). Another was Decree 4 and the
killing of drug barons. What will you do when you
become president? Will you return the War Against
Indiscipline as a policy? What is your policy on drugs
and what will your relationship with the media be?
General Buhari: Yeah, you are talking about a
different system when we had war against indiscipline
and the fate of drug traffickers in the country. Now,
under the current democratic system, what is in the
constitution is what will endure. It is what we will
be superior. The only difference is style. I will
insist that the Police do their job to arrest and
prosecute and the judiciary will punish the offenders
according to the constitution, I can’t do more than
that under this system. In the military we have laws
that guide our conduct in the form of decrees and
edicts and we work according to them and those in
charge of the country just have to endure. So it’s the
same thing under a different setting. The constitution
is all-embracing. So it is in the constitution what
will happen to drug traffickers in Nigeria.
Question: Ok General, let me quickly
ask a follow-up. Part of your attraction to a lot of
young Nigerians that I am familiar with is your
zero-tolerance policy towards corruption, your
insistence on things being done right. Now if you are
going to give in to the current system by saying that
you will allow the police to do their job, that you
are not bringing back the War Against Indiscipline,
people will wonder what is the difference between you
and other candidates. The only reason General Buhari
is popular among a lot of young people is your policy;
your war against indiscipline was successful, your
fight against corruption was successful. So you are
not going to bring in your past antecedents as head of
state, things that make you popular? You’re going to
be like any other president— to allow the constitution
and things to go the way they normally are? Do I
understand you to be saying that, General?
General Buhari:
Well, I think I’ve answered this question. What we
would do is to make the institutions functional,
especially the police, the civil service and other
agencies and the judiciary, because our constitution
and other regulations are comprehensive enough and the
people understand it. The problem is the execution,
and what I am saying is that it is going to be a
question of time. Our time would be zero tolerance for
corruption, as you said, and we will also fight
against indiscipline. Indiscipline and corruption are
the two great problems in Nigeria, and I think it has
gotten to a level where Nigerians are fed up and
really want a change. They want leadership. They want
transparency. They want accountability. And these are
what we are going to give Nigerians, God willing.
PRESIDENTIAL
FLEET AND PRIORITIES
Question: Thank you General. This is
Pius again. Just to take off from where Farooq
stopped. You also have a reputation for being a very
simple man. I have heard people who know say, “He is a
very simple man.” And I think you’re going to have a
problem being a simple man if elected with 9 planes in
your presidential fleet. There is going to be a
problem, I think. The idea of a simple man who has 9
planes, that is the size of Ethiopian Airline in
general and it seems that since General Obasanjo we
have a practice of every president adding to their
fleet, you know. He added 2, I believe, and Goodluck
Jonathan is going to add 3. So how are you going to
cope with the planes, sir?
General Buhari: This is a funny question. My
concern about Nigeria is fundamental. What has the
planes got to do with it? Our people cannot go to
school. They cannot go to good hospitals. we don’t get
our priority right in this country. When we don’t have
electricity, when we don’t have drinking water, I
assure you we will do away with wastage and get our
priorities right.
CLOSING
STATEMENT
Well my fellow country men and women, next year is
going to be a watershed for us and our country. We
believe in God. We want Nigerians to have the courage
to exercise their fundamental right, to go and
register, to go and vote in their wards, and to ensure
that their votes count, which I respectfully demand
from all Nigerians. Thank you very much.
Source:
Village Square
©
EsinIslam.Com
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